Chris M brought up a good point via e-mail the other day: The Rangers are using stud prospect Neftali Feliz as their closer.
It’s not exactly the same as the Mets’ situation with Jenrry Mejia for a couple of reasons: For one, Feliz dominated Major League hitters in relief last season, so he presents much more of a sure thing in late innings for the Rangers than Mejia does for the Mets.
Second, the Rangers appear much more likely than the Mets to compete in their division, and so have a better case for jeopardizing long-term interests in the name of short-term success.
Still, it’s easy to argue that the Rangers are making a mistake. Without having followed the team that closely this spring, I would, especially since Feliz might already be an upgrade in the Rangers’ rotation over journeyman Colby Lewis and converted reliever (and excellent Twitterer) C.J. Wilson.
Anyway, I asked Adam Morris of LoneStarBall.com about that, plus previewed the Yanks’ upcoming series with the Rangers for today’s episode of The Baseball Show:
Tedquarters 
So basically there is just 2 different schools of thought here. Those who believe that a picther will be ruined by using him out of the pen, only to return to starting at a later date, and those like this dude you spoke with who think breaking a picther in with a relief role is a good way to do it.
I guess the answer is who knows. For all the talk about how ‘jerking him around’ ruined Joba, you can also look at Phil Hughes who seemed to gain a ton of confidence pitching well out of the pen last year. If he does well this year then you’d have 2 cases on the same team where the results were completely opposite, leaving us right where we started, with no answer, once again.
I’d say it’s way way more complicated than that. It also depends heavily on how you use that pitcher in relief roles, and at what point you put him into the bullpen. Feliz and Hollday both had about 130-150 innings in AA and AAA before they were moved into the bullpen. Hughes had about 120 innings in AA in 2006 and has had upwards of 70 innings in AAA spread out over the last 3 seasons. Joba on the other hand had less than 50 in AA and AAA ball. And in all cases the pitchers has pretty established repertoires multiple above average pitches, Feliz is probably the exception there but he at least had an pretty well developed “slurve” to go along with the insane movement on his fastball.
I disagree….. its really isnt all that complicated at all. Like I said, some people think that a pitcher can develope while breaking in as a relief picther, while other dont.
The question of which school of thought is right will probably never be answered, as like I pointed out, there are many case, not just recent ones that show the results could go either way.
I personally feel that its an over blown topic. I think the picther will eventually end up in the same place at the end of the day, no matter where they are pitching. If the pitcher end up not making its probably because they didnt have the talent or the makeup to start (like Joba),
But what I’m saying is it’s not as simple as some people think he can some people think he can’t. Some people, in fact I’d wager probably most people, think he can IF he’s had proper preparation, i.e a certain number of innings in the upper levels of the minors. Where as they wouldn’t necessarily share the same belief in the case of a much rawer player. And some people might think it works for certain types of starters, like power pitchers, but not softer throwers. and etc etc.
Chris M — I think our dispute here might be over the word “develop.”
To the extent “develop” means having command over a full repertoire of pitches, I don’t think that anyone believes that a pitcher can develop into a starter by pitching in a major league bullpen. Not enough innings. Not enough opportunity. Not enough repetition.
To the extent “develop” means that a pitcher with command over a full repertoire can obtain the maturity, polish and professional approach needed to be an effective major league starter, yes, many people believe that a pitcher can develop like that in a major league bullpen.
Chris M — you are absolutely right that there is no clear-cut answer, but its because no two pitchers are alike, and the situation really needs to be assessed on a case by case basis.
I’m all for the old-school, Earl Weaver approach of putting a pitcher in the pen to get accustomed to the majors if the pitcher has fully developed his secondary stuff and fastball command in the minors so that he is ready to start in the majors when taken out of the pen. What’s the point of leaving such a player in the minors if he has nothing left to learn or prove there?
But that’s not the case with Mejia. His secondary offerings are not even close to major league ready, and his fastball command leaves much to be desired as evidenced by his AFL stats. Barajas said it best when he said that Mejia needs to be in the minors so he can throw his curveball 20 times in a row in a game setting. He can’t do that in the majors.
As for Joba and Hughes — Joba is a victim of unrealistic expectations caused by fans who assumed his bullpen success would automatically translate into starting success without any growing pains. He logged a mere 88 innings in the minors and was rushed into the starting rotation based upon 20 or so innings of dominance in the bullpen. He’d be fine as a starter if they’d just leave him there, but they don’t have room for him because of the Vazquez trade and because Hughes is better. Hughes’ curveball was a plus pitch when the Yanks called him up in 2007, so he was a guy who just needed to get his feet wet as a major leaguer and a good candidate for the Earl Waver approach.
Ted has already distinguished Mejia from Wainright, among others.
Barajas said that?? Someone get that man a vesting option.
Something to that effect. I think Ted posted a link last month. He just might be the smartest man affiliated with the franchise right now.
Oh yeah, Rod Barajas is totally on board. Not sure why I can’t find a non-mobile version of that story, but whatever.
Also, Rod Barajas for GM.
He”ll get the same number of walks as GM as he does as catcher.
Where I disagree with you little bit is your assesment of Mejia, when you say that his secondary offerings are not major league ready. I agree with that, but you are trying to say that this is specific to Mejia.
If you are in general talking about the choice between developing a pitch in the pen, or sending him to the minors to start, then by default in all of these cases, the pitchers secondary offering would not be major league ready correct? Because if they were, what would stop them from just starting in the majors?
Mejia in that regard is no different that any other pitcher in the same situation. And I disagree on Joba, that guy had dominat reliever writtten all over him from the day he came up. I dont think he’d have ever turned into a top of the rotation starter.
If the Giants had thrown Lincecum into the pen as a rookie, wouldn’t he have had dominant reliever written all over him? I’m not sold on Joba as a top of the rotation starter either, but I don’t think he was given a fair chance.
As for Mejia, what I am saying is that I believe it is a mistake to take a pitcher who could develop into a top-flight starter and to put him into the pen before he has had the opportunity to so develop. And its not just secondary offerings which concern me. Its fastball command and consistency of delivery and mechanics. These things take time and repetition.
Not necessarily, because you’re assuming pitches are either major league ready or they’re not and it’s totally black and white. I don’t think it’s that black and white a pitcher could have a major league ready fastball and a curve ball that’s 50% of the way there, or two pitches that are like 80% of the way there. Like with Meija his curve ball is nasty but he struggles to command it, while other pitchers who might have a decent pitch they can command and get outs with but might want to change the movement or break of one of them just to be more effective.
There’s also the fact that major league ready reportoires != major league ready. Joba, Hughes, Holland, Feliz are all examples of this, which is why they were moved into the pen, their actual repertoire was good enough to get major leaguers out, and continuing to pitch in the minors wasn’t going to improve it but for different reasons they’re not ready to be a major league starter.
One reason might be they’re not stretched out/ready to handle the workload, similarly to Joba and Feliz but their actual repertoire is only going to improve by facing better hitters than what AA and AAA can provide.
Another reason might be they have two + pitches but their third/fourth pitches are shakier, kind of like with Pelfrey, and Feliz also but since they’re not going to be used to the same frequency they don’t necessarily need to throw them as much as a pitcher might throw his primary pitches to work on them so they can mix it in out of the bullpen to get work on it, where it’s not going to hurt them as much as it would trying to go through a line up 3-4 times with just two pitches, while their still getting the experience against better hitters to improve their primary pitches.
Or they may just not know “how to pitch”, i.e how to pace themselves how to mix up their pitches when to use a pitch as an out pitch etc and they’ll be better off working with the major league catcher out of the bullpen or through out the year on off days while working on it in the bullpen. I’ve also heard this as a reason why certain pitchers should stay in AAA and certain pitchers should come out of the bullpen. A softer breaker ball throwing pitcher, like Niese would be better off learning how to pitch in AAA cause his stuff isn’t going to translate as well in a bullpen, where as a guy like Joba, who can blow guys away with his primary pitches, can afford to work on learning how to mix it up and when to go to a pitch out of the bullpen because if he starts to struggle working on his other pitches he can always fall back on that 100 mph fastball to get himself out of a jam. Although a counter argument I’ve also heard from a lot of Yankees fans is that he’s never learned how to pace himself which is why he struggles in starts.
That’s a pretty good analysis of all the different factors which must be assessed when making this decision. Its pretty clear that you have given this subject more thought than either Jerry or Omar.
But I wouldn’t describe Mejia’s curve as “nasty.” I saw him throw a couple of nasty ones this spring which gave me hope for him long-term, but I also saw his toss a couple of helicopters up there with nothing on them. His curve has big-time potential, but its not even close to being a plus pitch yet.
And why are you pointing at his Arizona Fall League stats? Talk about sample size limits. You are basing your entire assesment of his control on the 12 innings he threw in the AFL?
The Arizona Fall League is just the most recent example. He was hardly Greg Maddux at Binghamton either.
The kid is a work in progress. And that’s why he should be in the minors rather than the bullpen.
Now you go back to Binghamton for your examples? Why do you keep moving to the past, why not look at spring training or his few innings so far in the majors, where his control has looked fine.
Weren’t you just complaining about AFL sample sizes, aren’t 4 major league innings and spring training sample sizes, a lot of times facing AAAA type hitters, an even smaller sample size?
You suggest that we ignore his minor league starts for his spring training relief appearances to ascertain whether he has developed sufficient command to be considered ready to start in the majors after a stint in the bullpen?
Look, I hope you’re right. I hope he is a unique talent who can develop into a top flight starter while toiling in the major league pen. And you are right when you argue that there is no way to know for certain what is the right course.
But leaving him in the minors would be the much more prudent course. And that is rather undeniable.
We’re also ignoring the Jerry Manuel effect on Meija’s arm heath. I think it’s safe to say it’s a fact that Jerry’s goal is too overwork all his relievers by June. And he’s apparently been given no rules as to how to use/work Meija.